Green IO
#13 - Lucile Vannier - Being the voice of IT Sustainability in a large corporation
February 21, 2023
In this episode, Gaël Duez stayed home in France to discuss gender equity in IT and building sustainability teams in large companies. His guests Lucille Vannier is one of the strongest voices in the French IT sector for gender equality. She is also the Strategy Deputy Director of the Sustainable IT Institute, which is the academic body spearheading most of the research in France on Digital Sustainability. She provides serious advice for anybody who wants to follow her lead in advocating for a sustainable and equitable future in the IT space, with lots of resources to check out too! 🤓 ❤️ Subscribe, follow, like, ... stay connected the way you want to never miss an episode!
In this episode, Gaël Duez stayed home in France to discuss gender equity in IT and building sustainability teams in large companies. His guests Lucille Vannier is one of the strongest voices in the French IT sector for gender equality. She is also the Strategy Deputy Director of the Sustainable IT Institute, which is the academic body spearheading most of the research in France on Digital Sustainability. 

She provides serious advice for anybody who wants to follow her lead in advocating for a sustainable and equitable future in the IT space, with lots of resources to check out too! 🤓

❤️ Subscribe, follow, like, ... stay connected the way you want to never miss an episode!

Learn more about our guest and connect: 

📧 You can also send us an email at to share your feedback and suggest future guests or topics.   

Lucile’s sources and other references mentioned in this episode:

Mentioned in the Episode

In English 
In French
Trying to link technology and ecology when everything opposes them

 “L'Octet Vert” by Tristan Nitot (in French)
Talk about Climate, digital and invigorate !

 “Déclics ou des claques ?” by Groupe ISIA
Sustainable digital Idea box.
To learn the fundamentals:

Transcript : 

Gael: Hello everyone, in this episode. We go to not, or parrot. Well, I don't know, actually, with remote work, it's sometimes hard to know where people are based. So let's say we go to France for the sake of simplicity. Actually, it's still a quite exotic destination for a lot of our listeners. And today I have the pleasure to speak to Lucile Vannier.

Where to start, with someone as active as Lucile? She's one of the strongest voices in the French IT sector for gender equality. She's also the strategy deputy director of the Institute for Sustainable IT, which is the academic body spearheading most of the research in France on digital sustainability, and she's also neck deep into green IT, being the voice for digital sustainability inside the BPC bank, the seventh's largest European bank. And before that she had an impeccable track, we called managing projects in big financial institutions. And actually, this is one of the reasons I wanted to have her on the show. We tend to mix a lot. Tech and tech.

We focus a lot on the digital tech sector, which shiny pure players companies where the product is a digital product, where the CIO is often a CTO. But the majority of people working in IT, work in non-tech companies or public services where they provide essential enablers but not the core product or service being sold.

Most of the time, they have the very same hard and soft skills that people work for a digital tech company, but they do not face the same challenges at all. Financial institutions with all their rules, size-related issues, and historical layers of complexity are a great place to start. Lucile is a great guest to start with.

Now full disclosure number one. I also have the pleasure to host Lucile on stage at the API days conference. It was December 15th in Paris. She has talked in the sustainability track, which I had the pleasure to facilitate this year, and I strongly suggest you watch the recording of a presentation. And full disclosure number two.

Since I posted about my struggle not reaching gender parity in this podcast this year, but it will be achieved next year. No worries. Lucile has connected me with at least a dozen of French female experts, I reckon. Because my message resonated with her conviction, but also because that is the way she's Lucille, a natural born giver, thriving to make people collaborate and connect to a greener tech world.

So welcome, Lucile. I'm delighted to have you on the show. 

Lucile: Thank you. I can complete it.

Gael: Yeah, absolutely. What did I miss in your bio? 

Lucile: Yes, I complete with a personal story so, I don't sleep much. I like to do yoga and body, but unfortunately, I haven't done any sports for a few months due to a semi, entire, cruciate ligament.

Gael: Outch. 

Lucile: I like trekking, surfing and eating good food and drinking good wine with my family and my friends. I like to go to the cinema, and by the way, I recommend the last movies I've seen the Innocent by Louis Garrel. The Little Nicholas, I will say in English, but the famous sentence in French is "What are we waiting for to be happy?"(it's a French song) by Amandine Fredon et Benjamin Massoubre. Goliath by Frédéric Tellier. And it's quite funny because all the three films are French, but I like different kinds of movies and not only French movies. The last one isn't very happy and it's about an investigation into a pesticide. And it is inspired by Moo Papers and Moto five and involves the herbicide glyphosate. I also read a lot.

Less since I have had children. Before I read no verse on the Metro when I lived in Paris. But since living in Nantes, I drive to work and so I have changed the books for podcasts and music. 

Gael: That's not good for the planet, except if you drive an EV. But that's good for me as a podcast host.

Lucile: Yes. Yes. You are one of the podcasts I'm listening to. And now, I only read novels when I am on holiday. But I read a lot of scientific articles while I'm at work. 

Gael: That's funny because that's a debate among people. Like, do you read nonfiction books to clear your mind a bit? I must admit that I read less and less fiction and I'm more and more into non-fiction books, not necessarily, in the digital sustainability area, because I need to clear my mind a bit, but history, sociology, et cetera. I find it harder and harder to read a non-fiction book. Except if they're kind of like June, you know like they're fiction books, but they're like political strategy masterpieces or something like that. 

Lucile: But when I was a teenager, I read a lot of fiction, anticipation fiction, but now it's more about society.

Gael: Yeah. Well, me too, I must admit. Me too. 

How did you become interested in the sustainability of our digital sector? Sustainability in general and the sustainability of a digital sector in the first place. 

Lucile: Yes. It's very late because it was when I was pregnant, that was 12 years ago. As a precaution for my child, I started eating organic food and wearing organic clothes, and I said to myself, I must be more aware of it.

And I felt guilty about my children living in Paris with all the pollution. There was no garden. Furthermore, when they came back from vacation outside of Paris, within a few weeks, they lost their bright, clear voices again. And I remembered my very, very happy child was playing in the forest, big garden because my parents are living in a wood. 

So I started reading about pollution and climate change and then we decided to move to Nantes in 2017. I continued to educate myself on ecology and look for how I could support climate change. A colleague asked me to participate in a hackathon as a facilitator.

And when I discovered the theme, it was IT for green. I wanted to take part in it. To prepare myself, it was in November 2018. I teach myself about digital technology and digital pollution. I discovered that digital was polluting a lot. Then, while digging, I read about the huge societal impact.

Gael: Okay, so you've got this kind of a haha moment. You realize that, sustainability, digital sustainability is an issue, which is not something that most people, they wake up one morning and say, oh, by the way, I should investigate what is the environmental footprint of our digital world?

And how do you manage to connect this with your job at BPC? Because you became someone very much involved in digital sustainability within the BPC. But how did it all start? 

Lucile: Earlier, I spoke about the hackathon, with my team we won it by offering E-Green. We propose the three following tools that will inform users of emails, and how polluting they are... a training module to raise awareness of the impacts of digital technology and share eco-friendly practices and an individual dashboard to monitor the reduction of its impacts. After this hackathon, I afford to obtain a budget for my company to implement our proposal. It was in 2018.

The name was IBP, and IBP was the software edition entity of the Banque Populaire. I lead this project in conjunction with my work in the entrepreneurship model. I created an outlook tool to inform users how much their emails will impact the environment and how to decrease this impact...

I created also a training model. And at the same time, I began to communicate on the company's social media platforms about digital impact, social media, like LinkedIn and Facebook and Twitter.

Gael: And all of this, you've done it as a side job? Regarding your main mission? It was not yet your main mission? It was a side mission that you kind of self-allocated to yourself?

Lucile: Yes, because I wanted everyone to understand that digital is polluting activity. 

Gael: Yeah, I understand. No one prevented you to do so? You had no red light?

Lucile: No. 

Gael: Okay. How did it accelerate? 

Lucile: In 2019, I followed groups: HR program leadership for women. This allows you to focus among over things on your professional project. I have thought a lot about what I can do about sustainability in the digital sector and my job.

I wanted to be the contact person for the sustainability of the company. Because I was so passionate about this subject, I kept on speaking to my director about having a team to work on sustainability in IT. The first time he said that it will never be a priority in our company. But I came back, came back. And in 2020, after the lockdown when I questioned it again, he approved for me to prepare. I began to study the market and I discovered that the software edition entity of the Caisse d'Épargne, the other brand of the BPC group. 

It seemed to be very advanced in sustainable IT. I found a name, Philippe Derouet and I tried to call him. As he doesn't reply, he never replied to me. I wrote to him and he invited me to contact Cecile Maugé. Then I called her and what a surprise, that was my aha moment, she said to me: Oh, IBP, I have been trying to contact IBP for several months. 

Gael: That's interesting because when you work in such a big group, actually you've got people working on the same topics, willing to work together, but not having a clue that the other exists. So, that's very interesting.

Lucile: Yes, we have a very big group, there are a lot of companies in my group. And Cecil was creating a sustainable digital team with the approval of the CTO, Laurent Benatar I immediately wrote to two members of the managing board, to inform them about the new team and that really would like to apply for this position.

Gael: And this team, what was the output and outcome? Did you start, because you were part of this team, what did you start to achieve?

Lucile: Firstly, we launched two actions. We educated ourselves by doing an online course and getting certified in sustainable IT. 

Our team members were people already very aware of the impacts of climate change, but everyone's knowledge was at different levels. Everyone in the team was very passionate about this project. We have partnered with a consulting firm specializing in CSR to order the level of our digital sustainability.

We had an inventory of our strengths, weaknesses, and areas for improvement. We didn't suffer because earlier I said that ITC worked on sustainable IT, but it did not exist, it was two major establishments.

They had already started work on this subject. So what was surprising was that even companies that did not have a dedicated business plan for sustainable IT, had already worked on the real topics. So, on this basis, we have created a strategic plan. After, we worked on our first output for the employees.

We reviewed the PowerPoint document template, shame on us, but before, the weight was 3.5 megabits, so it was too much. And we went from way heavier to 500 kilobits.

Gael: I must admit, Lucile, that when you told me that, I was amazed because I never consider Powerpoint templates as being an issue. But obviously when you work in such a big company with people using this template to create thousands and thousands of presentations. It makes total sense. But I was like, oh yeah, thank you, captain. Obvious, but actually I never thought about it. So thanks a lot. And I'm pretty sure that quite a lot of our listeners will have the same surprise that I did. 

Lucile: Yes. And we will use it every day so. We officially committed to the group by signing the Sustainable Digital Charter of the INR and its Institute for Sustainable IT. And the signature was carried out in October 2020. And there's a sponsorship of the Ministry of Ecological transition. We did a lot of lobbying to sell our team and in particular to expand our team. And all this job was inside of our job. 

Gael: Lucile, by expanding the team, do you mean expanding in terms of head counts, budget or just raising more attention and people knowing that you exist?

Lucile: All of that. 

Gael: We want your attention, we want your money, and we want your people. Yes. Okay. Join us. 

Lucile: Yes, all, 'cause we hadn't money when we began. It was always like an entrepreneur, an entrepreneur project. I was always in the fusion migration of another big project and Philip was the only guy who can work. He was full-time on this subject, but he was the only, but only guy.

Gael: And what about this strategic plan? So you wrote it and what did it become? 

Lucile: Yes, the Executive Management validated the strategic plan that we proposed. And the best news about our strategic plan was that it has been incorporated into the group's strategic plan. So we were very surprised, very happy about that. And our sustainable IT strategic plan is divided into two goals: to decrease by 15% our IT carbon footprint by 2024 and to improve by 10% data centre efficiency. And, we have proposed five new projects as part of the strategic plan. Our first project was: to change the lifecycle of IT devices and hardware. Our goal is to lengthen the lifecycle between the manufacturer and the end of product life. Second project: design a sustainability software program, specifically for our projects. First project: data centre management and through the management and use of data is significantly more efficient for the project.

Raise awareness and educate the staff. We are 100,000 employees in the BPC group. It is very important to educate, everyone. And we will communicate about the best practices and benefits related to sustainability. And the fifth project: creating KPIs to ensure we are constantly improving and reaching our set milestones.

Gael: That's quite interesting that you mentioned KPI because for all these five projects and actually you already had measurable goals. When you say decreasing by 15%, the IT carbon footprint for instance. But for these five projects, how did you measure success? What were the expected benefits of these different projects and actually did you manage to finish or actually even kickstart all of them?

Lucile: No, They're all in progress.

Gael: Okay. 

Lucile: And the first success was to obtain a budget.

Gael: Yeah.

Lucile: So we started without a budget. When we obtain it, it was easier. Now we are several people working full-time in sustainable IT and we received three awards in less than one year.

In December 2021, we were laureate of the sustainable digital trophy. In the strategy of organizations category by INR and it was under the sponsorship of Cedrico, the ex-Secretary of State for digital transition. In June 2022, we were winners of the Eco Code challenge: how green your app? And it was to expand Sonar Cube. 

It's a quality tool with eco-design rules. In October 2022 we were going for the trusted digitalization category. It was for the 2201 Ethno Spec about eco-design of digital services. I want to say that in general, institutions and organizations that adopt a sustainability approach will benefit from big gains. 

It allows efficiency gains, cost savings, energy savings, extended lifetime, and other units. And it permits reductions, reduction in staff turnover, greater customer satisfaction, increased motivation, improved quality and advanced company image. So, there are a lot of gains. 

Gael: Very interesting benefits. And did you notice some of them in BPC, like the staff turnover reduced a bit or did you see any improvement in the quality of the company brand? 

Lucile: Yes. So as I said we are in progress and KPIs are not the project, the KPI project is not the project where we have a lot of data. And we are building this indicator. But we can see that people are very happy to work with sustainable variety. There are a lot of people who ask me to work on this project. So it's a quality KPI. 

Gael: And, you know, talking about people. How did you manage the human side of your project? Because you started without a budget, with people having some, somehow a daily job and maybe their managers would let them have some bandwidth to work on digital sustainability, but that was not their main mission. What was the relationship between the different stakeholders involved and how did you manage to create obviously a positive momentum because you've got the three prices in less than two years?

Lucile: Yes. So I work well using collective intelligence. Everyone has good ideas. And by having a discussion with different people, we can think more systemically and be more innovative.

So I think soft skills are the most important. To be open-minded, transparent, kind and caring to the people and their ideas, to have strong values and ethics, inclusiveness, a sense of community, to be ecologically friendly, it's really easier to use this kind of collective intelligence.

ICT sustainability is a young sector, very young sector. There is also Caroline from Birdeo. It is a recruitment agency specializing in CSR. She said there is currently a shortage of skills on the subjects of ecological and societal transition. And in the BPC group, we are very lucky because we have experts in our team.

Our ambition is the upskilling of each employee. And many people join our team with no knowledge of the subject. But the most important fact is their motivation. If they want to make changes and contribute, it's the most important. It's our role to develop their skills. 

This is why we have chosen to build our team in-house with an exhaustive number of employees. 

Gael: So that's a very important point because that's a choice that very often big organizations face, they don't necessarily have all the resources in-house. 

And you made the choice to upscale employees rather than hiring mercenaries or expert companies to fill the gap for several months, sometimes even several years. Why did you do that? 

Lucile: Because it's a digital transformation. If you don't build a real digital transformation. Employees have to learn and have to grow up with this kind of mind. If you ask an external company, like a consultancy, or consultancy company to drive and do your digital transformation. It can't be a success. It can't succeed because the need is that your employees to change their minds. So it's easier if the company build this new kind of mine. 

Gael: Yeah, fair point. Fair. 

Lucile: It was easier for us because we are very lucky to have a highly knowledgeable and experienced person in our team, together with two expert companies, we don't do anything alone. These two companies were an easier group and we have produced training models that will support us in our printing programs. And we have chosen them for their values and have established trust in the relationship with them. We are aware that we have learned together.

They're a number of us from BPCE will work with AFNOR. AFNOR is the French Standard Association and the CIGREF is the network of big French businesses and public administrations wishing to progress in digital technology. We work with ADN Ouest and it's a network of digital professionals from Britain and Pays de la Loire regions. We work with the Institute for Sustainable IT. 

Gael: Yeah, we know them now. Both upskilling employees, and building in-house teams, but still relying a lot on the big networks. That makes total sense. And above this network of experts and other organizations, do you use specific tools, specific norms, et cetera; when you push the digital sustainability topic within the BPC? 

Lucile: Yes. The foundation of our work is GR 40 91. It's the handbook of sustainable design of digital services published by the INR AFNOR Specs, Eco Design of Digital Services. We use and are still using Microsoft 365 and Teams. We use the files, the chat, and the video conferences and the for the history.

Our team was created during the covid 19 pandemic. Everything was created remotely between people located all over France: Paris, Orleans, Rennes, and Aix en Provence.

Gael: So, remote from day one.

Lucile: Yes. So digital tools help to build our team. And we also use the company's social network newsletters and existing meetings because we make a lot of internal conferences to explain the impact and the benefits of sustainable IT. It's the lobbying I said before, and during our collaborative working group, we use Klaxoon, it is a startup from Rennes in the west of France that proposed this tool. It is a suite of collaborative tools for efficient teamwork online. We are creating an eco score to monitor whether we are sustainable by design, and to monitor our progress.

Gael: You build your own tool on top of the existing tool. That's very interesting. And in general, knowing all this progress, I hope that the listeners that did not have the opportunity, because I'm not gonna say a chance, but to work in a very big organization, I hope they really consider, that really relies on the kind of amazing job that your team and yourself did because you changed a lot of things within a very big corporation.

The BPC is a very big bank. It's actually the result of a merger between two big banks. It's a very strong coupled culture. You've got Natexis on top of it. That's really a nightmare, an organizational nightmare. Still, you manage to connect people, you manage to launch these projects, and you manage to win awards. That's just to put things in perspective with people working who has only worked in a medium-sized company or startup.

What kind of advice would you give to someone willing the same as you did in a significant company or a very large company? 

Lucile: Yes. My advice is not only for big companies, I think it's for all. Firstly never give up.

Particularly, when you believe in something and you consider that to be the most important thing to do. Secondly, a lot of people asked me who can lead a sustainable digital sector. An IT manager or a CSR manager? And I think, it could be an IT manager, it could be a CSR manager.

But for me, anyone can do my job. If you are satisfied that we have to be more sustainable, you can do my job. As surprising as it may be. The BPC program director isn't from IT or CSR department. She comes from financial control. 

Gael: That's a very important point because what you're saying is that it's not a job, it's a role, and it's more a question of soft skills and, and being empowered enough with a strong mandate within your organization rather than having the job description.

Lucile: The most important is soft skills. Because it's about a transformation. It also consists of a change of mentality and paradigm. We can learn CSR and IT and sustainable IT. But it's more difficult to learn the ability to explain this per flexibility and to negotiate with diplomacy...

The last piece of advice, but it's not the least. Improve the life duration of the device in your company because it is the best practice. The device that pollutes the least is the one that is not manufactured. We really have to work on life duration. And there are a lot of other best practices.

You can use a protective cover against shock. You can save battery life. You prefer smaller recharges to remain between 20 and 80% because it's better for the battery life and never expose devices to very high or very low temperatures and humidity. And if you have to change your device, prefer second-hand.

If you need IT equipment, prefer to buy refurbished devices rather than purchasing new ones. 

Gael: And I can really concur because living on a tropical island. Unfortunately both my smartphone and my laptop, they've got a very hard time when the weather is hot and, and with a lot of humidity. That's really something that we should pay attention to.

Lucile to be honest, beyond BPCE, you've got kind of a crazy life. You are also very active on different topics. If you had to pick one of the engagements something that you are involved in beyond BPC what would it be and could you tell our listeners a bit more about it?

Lucile: Yes. I'm very lucky because I really like, I really love my job and I strongly recommend that people engage in association, in working groups, whether they are novice experts because I said before, but collective intelligence and the various discussions allow everyone to move forward and to build a common base for a more ethical and sustainable digital world.

I am very active in three associations. INR, I am in strategy direction to racing digital technologies, promote sustainable tech and produce useful tools for everyone. I think INR can play a role and act as a lobbyist in France and in Europe and maybe more. I am in the sustainable IT community to increase awareness regarding good practices.

I am in a feminist association because I'm a feminist since 2015 before I wasn't. In 2015, I followed an HR program, at a company, with a talented woman, and when my manager suggested me this program, I was very disappointed. And I ask him: Why not a company, talented people only?

He told me that It was a really good program. So I accepted and I was very happy. It was a good program because it permits me to realize gender inequalities in societies and a lot of stereotypes. I really want everyone to know that. 

Gael: Can I interrupt you here, because I'm wondering, you're super active in this gender gap, this issue of lack of parity in this IT sector? Do you see some kind of link between sustainability and gender inequality? 

Lucile: Yes, because if you read the study of IPCC, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, it is evident that people who are already most vulnerable and marginalized will also experience the greatest impacts.

And the United Nation said women are increasingly being seen as more vulnerable than men to the impact of climate change. Mainly because they represent the majority of the world's poor and, the difference between men and women can also be seen in their differential roles, responsibilities, decision-making, access to land and natural resources and access to opportunities and needs.

I really think we have to work on inequality, gender inequalities and climate change.

Gael: In tech most specifically, that's a hundred per cent true, at least backed up by many studies. In tech, and regarding digital sustainability, do you see a link as well?

Lucile: Yes. In general, I don't know if you see but in September this year, there is the new IMAGREEN KANTAR barometer published in September 2022. In private companies with 100 or more employees, 39% of employees feel a difference between their convictions and socio-ecological issues, the jobs they do and the activities of their company.

More and more people want to have meaningful work. I think companies and government will have no choice now, but they have to adapt this way of thinking. I'm really sure that digital sustainability can attract an organization. We can see that mentality is now changing. 

There is more and more criticism of our consumer society. Studies have confirmed that dynamic is led mostly by humans and the more educated people. Unfortunately, the digital industry has only 15% of humans in technical and engineering profiles and is relatively absent.

Not many stay because I don't know if you'd know, but one in two women leave the tech after eight years of work. There are various reasons ceiling, the negative balance between professional and private life, toxicity, and abuse, ... I really think that gender equality in the tech and digital sector is a very big challenge, and I'm sure digital sustainability can serve to attract women into them.

Earlier I spoke about women being victims of climate change, but I think we can also be seen as active and effective, promoters of edited adaptation and mitigation. I'm very proud because, in the BPC group, our sustainable digital management team is composed of women. We are six women out of eight, so it means 75% are women and it's quite rare.

Gael: Yeah. It's not that rare in the sustainability field in CSR et cetera. I tend to meet more women than men. So that's good news because it can offset a bit, as you say, the imbalance between that gender imbalance that you have in the tech sector, that's taking an even further step back. 

Talking more about the evolution of digital sustainability in general, what is the trend that you witnessed recently? Could you share with us if you were rather positive or negative regarding greening? Even if I know that you don't really like this word, but greening or digital word or reducing the environmental footprint of the ICT sector?

Lucile: I'm optimistic because I think that if we explain all of these negative impacts. People can change because we don't think about that. We only think about the good, and the positive impact of digital tools. But we have to think that there are tools, only. We can choose what kind of world we want, thanks to these tools. I really think we live in a time of big change and it could be very stressful because of the disastrous effect I said before, but at the same time, I think it is very exciting and interesting. We must, we have to build a new world. We have to rethink our lifestyles, our infrastructures, and our ways of thinking because we have to be more ethical and more equitable, more inclusive, and more aware.

Gael: If you had to pick only two references, whether it's a book, a podcast, a study, et cetera, that you would like to share with the listeners in English? What would it be? And I have to tell my listeners first that when we prepared this episode, Lucile gave me one of the most comprehensive lists of resources I've ever seen. Most of them are in French, so I will put all of them in the show notes. The episode notes will be pretty full this time, quite a lot for each episode, but this time it's pretty crazy. But what would be your top two? 

Lucile: I really recommend the Digital Collage or the Digital Fresco because it's a very amazing tool to understand the impact. I recommend a sustainable IT MOOC by INRIA in English. In French, I recommend the different tools proposed by INR in English. There is My Impact, the Sustainable IT Services Design handbook and the Directory of Sustainable IT experts. There is a list of English tools. They're available on the website and I recommend seeing the Social Dilemma it's a documentary investigation of social media and it shows how social media is designed, regulated, and used. They could have individual and collective consequences and their growing dependence. This investigation is good because it's not about the environmental impact, but the social impact.

Gael: Okay. Thanks a lot for all those references, your top three and actually all the others that I will put in the show notes. Thanks a lot. I hope that a lot of listeners, especially those working in a big organization, will find inspiration following your example, you're pretty easy to reach via LinkedIn.

So I guess if someone wants to share tips, especially a woman willing to get empowered a bit, your door will be open. Am I right? 

Lucile: Yes, yes.

Gael: I've already noticed it. So that was a very safe bet. Thanks a lot, Lucile for being on the show. That was super enlightening, kind of a time travel bit for me when I used to work with not in, but with big banks and big corporations.

So I really appreciate all the job that you've done in BPC and beyond. So thanks a lot. It was a pleasure to have you on the show. And that's it.

Lucile: Thank you, Gael.

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